Author Topic: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes  (Read 1214 times)

ApokalypseTest

  • Whale Island Instructor
  • Airman
  • *******
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2011, 02:44:14 PM »
Problem with that is that you would have to model the levs machine guns to shoot back as well...

Worktroll

  • Administrator
  • Leading Airman
  • *****
  • Posts: 603
  • Konter-Admiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
    • View Profile
    • Monsters in the Sky!
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2011, 02:54:20 PM »
One other thought - I suspect only base blue- and green-dice guns are goin to be able to even fire at aerofliers (no! Not wingstubes! Bad worktroll!). There's no way a 1910-vintage 6" or bigger gun is going to be able to target something that small, and beehive rounds did not exist. Plus there'll have been little development of timed fragmentation rounds (eg. all AA shells prior to the development of the proximity fuse).

One could factor the Maxims, Spandaus & Vickers mounts by giving levs a 'free' roll of a dBlue to any aerofliers that end up inside a few hexes, or something like that.

As per tactical recon - in 1914, artillery spotters performed their recon over enemy positions, then got the information back to the guns though a number of methods - writing notes, tying them to rocks, and dropping them on the guns, even variations on the "bee dance". It's a fascinating period. Then there's always what I call "ablative reconnaisance" - "Sir, the scouts have returned from sectors 1, 2, 4 and 5." "So, the enemy is in sector 3, eh?" ;)

W

Worktroll

  • Administrator
  • Leading Airman
  • *****
  • Posts: 603
  • Konter-Admiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
    • View Profile
    • Monsters in the Sky!
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2011, 03:01:12 PM »
And folks, I'm not being a buzzkiller just for the joy of it - I suspect people have in mind airplanes like this:



Whereas in 1910 the state of the art looked more like this:



And this:



All I can ask for is patience - I'd purely love to see planes like the Stormcrow in this link in the game - sometime. But not 1910.
http://tearsofenvysblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/war-of-worlds-goliath.html

Cheers,

W.

Alius

  • Airman
  • **
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2011, 02:23:03 PM »
Wow. The initial version is a little more complex than what I was expecting for a squadron. When you mentioned styling them off BT infantry, I was expecting just that:

A single location to hit, regardless of direction. Then, style them off levs combat, by giving them location dice for other ships and airplane squadrons to use, and then have slots either represent individual craft, or have the damage slots that aren't misses apply damage to the number of current aircraft in the squadron.

Then, have the strenght of their die modified by the number of existing aircraft. Maybe a modifier to a small dBlue or dGreen.

That's how I'd have done them.

That and Weapons with Sat Fire would not be able to use the ability against them. SatFire allows ships with big guns to re-roll miss slots, I think.

ApokalypseTest

  • Whale Island Instructor
  • Airman
  • *******
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2011, 11:38:38 PM »
and to roll two location dice instead of one

Weirdo

  • Airman
  • **
  • Posts: 128
    • View Profile
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2011, 10:21:22 PM »
Problem with that is that you would have to model the levs machine guns to shoot back as well...

MGs are standard-mounted on all Levs, right? And these guns are all but useless for anything but anti-air(or other squishy targets) work, as in nothing that's been released in the game so far, right? How about this: Whenever we get rules for such squishy targets, include an addendum that all Levs have a certain number of dBlue or dGreen that can only be used against such targets, and the number of light guns is dependent on the vessel's size. Say that Type 1s get 1 AA die, Types 2s get 2 such AA dice, and so on to represent the multitude of light guns each ship essentially for free? We might also get rules in the future for dedicated AA units that purposefully mount more such guns; those extra guns would have to be noted on the datacard, and also paid for in some way during whatever construction rules are developed.
...because that battleship's...well...FLYING.

Worktroll

  • Administrator
  • Leading Airman
  • *****
  • Posts: 603
  • Konter-Admiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
    • View Profile
    • Monsters in the Sky!
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2011, 05:33:07 PM »
Well, to be honest there's no real "AA" role for machine guns at the moment - no aerofliers would dare confront the monarchs of the skies ;) The MGs etc are usually mounted on the lower half of the hull, ideally placed for colonial pacifying actions and clearing an impromptu landing zone. If aerofliers ever did become a threat, that would change very easily I imagine.

W.

MadDogMaddux

  • Airman
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Looking to the skies...
    • View Profile
    • Gelateria Tavolini
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 08:45:06 AM »
 :) Yeah, it's amazing the difference a few years makes at this time of history. If you hold fast to 1910 developmental curve od aeroplanes, you got nothin. Give it 3 years, and suddenly you have Vickers Gunbus, a decent Avro, some respectable german monoplanes...

...really makes me hope Catalyst DO develop the game with a progressing universe and timeline.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:47:49 AM by MadDogMaddux »
CDT #132

Jim1701

  • Airman
  • **
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2011, 02:29:31 PM »
:) Yeah, it's amazing the difference a few years makes at this time of history. If you hold fast to 1910 developmental curve od aeroplanes, you got nothin. Give it 3 years, and suddenly you have Vickers Gunbus, a decent Avro, some respectable german monoplanes...

...really makes me hope Catalyst DO develop the game with a progressing universe and timeline.

But that was almost entirely due to the pressure cooker that was WWI and we still don't know when or how that is going to happen yet. 

Worktroll

  • Administrator
  • Leading Airman
  • *****
  • Posts: 603
  • Konter-Admiral, K.u.K. Luftflotte
    • View Profile
    • Monsters in the Sky!
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2011, 05:57:38 PM »
..really makes me hope Catalyst DO develop the game with a progressing universe and timeline.

It's what we want to do; you could say it's what Catalyst does with its "Universe" games. I know that while we've not got as hard & fast a plan as the BattleTech writers do, each introduction of new nations (eg. Germans & Italians currently next) the storyline moves forward.

Heck, I want to be there when the descendants of the Imperial Russian Air Fleet return 300 years later from their Antarctic exile (led there of course by Alexandr Kerensky ...)

W.

MadDogMaddux

  • Airman
  • **
  • Posts: 21
  • Looking to the skies...
    • View Profile
    • Gelateria Tavolini
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2011, 11:36:44 AM »
*facepalms*
CDT #132

Alius

  • Airman
  • **
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2011, 12:48:44 PM »
Y'know. I still think a couple of bundles of dynamite dropped into a steam stack would hurt a lev. Then there's the pistol to keep crewman's heads down. I guess attacking the stern is probably a bad idea, though. Don't want to try that headwind.

Maybe a prototype aerosquadron can make only one or two standard attacks in a basic game, and then only act as a suppressant for crew use while occupying a ship's hex?

Just a thought.

ApokalypseTest

  • Whale Island Instructor
  • Airman
  • *******
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2011, 03:02:43 PM »
tgat pistolto keep crewmen down would likely be met by marines with riflesto keepthe plane down... Anddynamite in the smokestacks probably would hurt but be extremely hardto pull off. Plus,ehile planes  are individually mu h cheaper than a lev, making a lot of planes and training a lot of pilots to get good enough to hit the smokestacks of a lev under move is an entirely different thing.

Never Knows Best

  • Airman Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2011, 03:52:04 PM »
I don't disagree with the ideas so far of trying to find out not only how warplanes could be useful against Leviathans but also when in the timeline.  There are some problems that need to be delt with however.

The first obvious one is location.  Planes have limited range so usually airfields were possitioned defensively around where the enemy was thought to come or offensively the planes would need to be carried to their location.   This made sense as the enemy could only come from certain locations but with Leviathans an invading fleet could come from anywhere and simply bipass any defensive locations of the enemy.  It wouldn't be easy for you, for example, to spot an enemy fleet and just scramble air fighters to that location.

Elevation is the most tricky one.  Airplanes were slightly to moderately effective in the era of around 1915-1918 but only against targets lower than they were.  10-20,000 ft would be an interesting benchmark because this would be the altitude crewman on Leviathans would start to feel the effect of the cold and oxygen depletion inherant at this altitude (IE it's safe to assume that until airsuits or pressurization was invented [the Germans first tested this in 1931] Leviathans wouldn't travel much higher than this.)   Aircraft were less prone to this risk since you only needed to protect 1 or, rarely, 2 pilots and they would only be at higher altitudes for very short periods of time if at all.  Still, at 1915 the highest recorded altitude for a plane was around 12,000 ft and by 1920 only 33,000.   An airplanes effectiveness against a target at the same level or higher would be greatly diminished with machine guns and bombs so at the very least airplanes as an effective weapon against Leviathans would be sometime after 1915, when they could get higher.  Airmasks in planes were also not used until well after WWI (developed first primarily by the Russians).

The third, already mentioned, is weaponry.  Airplanes were effective against zeppelins as early as 1915 but only for 2 reasons.  They were able to get higher than the zeppelin and the zeppelin was a relatively fragile craft.  Neither would be true for fighters against Leviathans.  Furthermore, while strafing took place against ground troups around 1915-18, it wasn't really used against ships and their crews until WWII, famously 1941 and the attack on Pearl Harbor.  You can probably assume that figher pilots in the Leviathan universe wouldn't be honing their skill of picking off the deck crews of the Leviathans until somewhere between these two dates.   

As a side note, it would be interesting to see what role zeppelins in this era take, if at all.  Reading the Leviathan timeline as per the website, it looks like there is a period where the Germans aren't really pursuing Leviathan development and perhaps at this time they are still able to carry out a few zeppelin bombings.   Leviathans would absolutely be zero match for Leviathans in any sort of combat however, but they may still be useful as some sort of "supplier" and gas, food and munitions are still needed and if you can get those to a Leviathan via a zeppelin that would mean they would not have to land making them less vulnerable (the Germans would obvioulsy be best at this, a possible race trait to go with their fleet?)

Bombs were an early-era plane's most useful weapon against big targets however bombs dropped by planes were in the 2-5 kg range for a long time (Japanese kept 2 kg bombs until around the beginning of WWII) and there were not many recorded incidents of airplanes attacking ships and even then there were no recorded hits again until around WWII.

However, since destroyers in Levianthans have "torpedoes" we could assume planes could use this same technology provided they could carry it, and then it would also be okay for them to have the same elevation.  To do so would require a type of "heavy bomber" and those didn't come onto the scene until around 1917-18 or so (no idea how the makers of Leviathans explain torpedo use in the air, propulsion for torpedoes in this era was some type of compressed gas or ignited liquid.  This was ideal with the resistance and near-weighlessness water offered but wouldn't work in the air).  Torpedo planes seem like they would be the best option and would make the to-game conversion very easy... just roll like you would for the other torpedoes.

Again with heavier planes requiring to be closer to some sort of airbase, carriers would almost be cruicial for any sort of practical usefullness against a Leviathan.  Which is actually good news.  The first carriers were on scene, by the British no less, around 1918 and were gaining popularity around the mid 1920's.  In our timeline carriers were only moderately useful during WWI because planes were only moderately useful and nations like the US didn't really buy into the idea (and only as a sort of fluke) until right before WWII (before this the battleship was king).  But with a heavier presence in the air and a larger scale, potentionally longer conflict, carriers may have become more prevelently used earlier.

I would say Carrier Leviathans would be no different and we should be able to see Torpedo-carrying planes hunting down Leviathans around 1920 in their timeline with relative ease.  Due to the economies of the nations in this era, the Japanese were the ones who most used and tested Torpedoes.  Might this be the Japanese's fleets specialty when they are released?


As a reference timeline:

1910 The first recorded plane to take off from a "carrier" warship, though the plane was little more than a Wright's Brothers type lighcraft

1911 Italian airplane first used "bombs"  against Turkish ground forces
          this was roughly 2 kg, or about as much as you would use to help clear a tree stump from your backyard

1913 The Greeks used bombs against a Turkish naval fleet, no hits were scored

1914 A plane shoots another plane down with a handgun, (should show the fragility of aircraft at this point)

1914 the first successful land strike by an air force launched from a carrier by the Japanese

1914 First recorded kill with a machine gun attached to a French plane gunned down a German plane (Lewis gun, machine guns on airplanes probably were not tremendously useful before this.  Strafing introduced as a concept not too long after this using the Avro 504)

1915 British airplane took down the first zeppelin from above with 6 bombs
 
1916 airplanes became increasingly effective against zeppelins through use of incendiary rounds which would pierce the tough outer skin and set the zeppelin on fire (Germans initially countered this by making zeppelins fly higher, 20,000 ft where airplanes could not yet reach but by 1918 the British already had airplanes capable of reaching those altitudes)

1917 Sopwith Cuckoo first US plane to test drop aereal torpedo

1918 First flat top carrier, HMS Argus, also dubbed "first carrier capable of launching and landing naval aircraft."  This is key as before most of the planes "launched" from a carrier might have been a lighter craft or else a seaplane lowered and lifted from the sea by a crane (obviously impossible to do from a Leviathan.)

1918 English use the HMS Furious in a successful aircraft carrier strike against German Zeppelin hangars (finally a traditional biplane design launched from a carrier)

1921 US non-war demonstration of the ability of heavy bomb aircraft to sink battleships.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 03:59:04 PM by Never Knows Best »