Author Topic: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes  (Read 1214 times)

MadDogMaddux

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An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« on: August 11, 2011, 12:30:11 AM »
So I thought I'd post a basic idea for how aeroplanes could be included in the game in such a way as to fit well both with the aesthetic and the timeline.

First off, a few notes:

1) I'm starting with the beginning point of "What would be a fun addition to the game" and going from there to "How can that be justified inside the game universe" rather than trying to extrapolate the historical development of airplanes based on the discovery of Electroid.
2) I decided to use the Vickers F.B.5 "Gunbus" as the basic model for an early plane. The F.B.5 first flew in 1914, but I would propose that with the advent of Electroid before the turn of the century and its practical application, there may have been MORE military push for the development of aviation weapons. Especially military programs without access to Electroid, yet, may have been scrambling for a means by which to compete with the Leviathan. Considering that the HMS Leviathan flew at the British Exposition of 1908, it seems feasible to me that the development of aeroplanes for war could have been more rapid.
3) I don't think that the presence of conventional aircraft needs to necessarily be exclusive from Electroid based aircraft. Worktroll and others have pointed out that there is not yet developed an electrical source capable of generating the necessary current for Electroid flight on as small a scale as an individual aircraft, but I would assume that the development of such things might be in the wings thanks to folks like Tesla and Edison.

So, the rough draft of the rules, as I envision them.



1) Aeroplanes fly in squadrons which fill one hex. A squadron may consist of several planes, maybe six, but for gameplay purposes, they move as a squadron.
2) Aeroplanes, armed only with something akin to a Lewis gun, do not have armor penetration capability, so they do not roll damage dice against Leviathans.
3) Aeroplanes do not have standard firing arcs, but can only fire in a straight line down the hexrow they are facing.
4) Aeroplanes have a much shorter attack range, reflective of roughly 800 yards (the approximate effective range of the Lewis gun, I couldn't find a direct correspondence between hexes and yards specifically listed. Can anyone clear that up for me? Maybe 3 hexes?)
5) Due to their speed and maneuverability, Aeroplanes move AFTER Leviathans.
6) Attacks by Aeroplanes take place AFTER all Leviathans make their attacks.
7) When resolving attacks by Aeroplanes against Leviathans, a squadron of Aeroplanes roll 3 white location dice. If any location die rolls a location that has already been destroyed, follow standard game rules for Critical Damage (Lieutenant's Manual, p. 21)
8) When resolving attacks by Leviathans against Aeroplanes, simply roll the location die. In the event of a hit, cross off one of the Squadron's location dice. When all three dice are crossed off, the squadron is destroyed.
9) When resolving attacks by Aeroplane Squadrons against other Aeroplane Squadrons, the attacker recieves DOUBLE his current Location dice. If attacking from directly behind at a range of 1 hex, the attacker recieves TRIPLE his current Location dice.



The culmination of these rules should produce a basic concept of Aeroplanes which have a role in the field of combat, but who are entirely dependant on the Leviathans to be able to damage another Leviathan.

The fact that the Aeroplanes attack AFTER the Leviathans means that the Leviathan has a chance to direct its fire at the attacking squadron and limit its effectiveness BEFORE the Aeroplanes fire.

Doubling and Tripling the Location Dice for Aeroplanes firing on another Squadron of Aeroplanes is meant to simulate the fact that their weapons are more specifically designed to attack small targets that are moving around a fair bit.

As far as progression of technology goes - it might be better to start off the early Bi Planes with only 2 Location Dice for Damage and Integrity, and then grant later planes more location dice, etc. Eventually, technology may grow to the point where aircraft use weapons that do actual damage - but I definitely don't expect so as early in the timeline as Leviathans begins....


I definitely welcome any thoughts, comments, or contributions. This is a Creative COMMONS, after all. Who knows, maybe we can add something fun to the game together?

The image used above (and attached) is copied from the Lieutenant's Manual .PDF and should only be used withing the bounds of the Creative Commons License.
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ApokalypseTest

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 01:47:35 AM »
if they roll three location dice and automatically penetrate in already destroyed locations, especially after the leviathans fire, I predict them to be extreme Lev Killers. Even a Lev firing on another onewith a completely opened section is rarely causing as many breaking the keel rolls.

With rules as written, theyare a must inevery fleet, which makes them a no no game design wise

MadDogMaddux

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 08:46:34 AM »
They do not automatically confirm a critical in already destroyed locations. They follow the rules for Criticals on P. 21 of the Lieutenant's Manual, which states that FIRST they must re-roll the location. If they roll the same slot, THEN they penetrate.

I've given them more location dice due to the fact that on a strafing run (presumably with incendiary ammunition), Aeroplanes have a bit more finesse available to them for aiming towards a breech location.

Think of it this way:
Firing broadside, both the HML Raven and HML Hertsfordshire have two attacks, or two chances to score a location hit.
Firing against the Type 1 Pelletier, with SI 18 and 5 miss slots, either British ship has 2 shots, each with a 1 in 6 chance of hitting an already destroyed location on the Pelletier, presuming there is already one existing.
If either ship hits the destroyed location, it must then re-roll to confirm the critical - again a 1 in 6 chance to hit it.
If either ship hits the destroyed location AGAIN, the controlling player rolls 2d10 plus a minimum of 7 (1 for each miss slot, 1 for the destroyed location hit, and additionional 1 for each miss slot or destroyed location on the side of the attack).
This means that the Pelletier's keel is broken with only one destroyed location by any one attack with successive rolls with odds of 1-in-6, 1-in-6, and 11 or more on 2d10.

The HML Raven dies nearly as easily, with an SI 20, resulting in a roll of 13 on 2d10 breaking the keel after critical confirmation.

The thing that protects these ships from constantly dying immediately is the requisite 1-in-6, 1-in-6 rolls. I think that maths out to a 2.7% chance to even get a Broken Keel roll with only one damaged location.

So, one squadron of Aeroplanes gets (as I have it written above) 3 chances, each at 2.7% odds, to destroy the Pelletier or HML Raven with one hit, provided they roll high enough on the 2d10 roll.

Mitigating their slightly higher chances (due to the extra location die) of scoring a crit is the fact that Leviathans fire first. This means that any Leviathan fires at, and hits, an Aeroplane squadron even ONCE, the squadron's chances of scoring a critical hit are lessened to equal to that of a broadside from a Type 1 ship. Moreso if there are multiple hits. Additionally, the squadron is automatically destroyed on three hits. So during the time in the game BEFORE there are any significant breeches to a ship, the player controlling Aeroplanes must guard their location against random fire (most ships will have at least one arc not engaged against other Leviathans) which will have a 1-in-3 (33%) chance of reducing the squadron's effectiveness. During this time, the higher movement points will prove to be more of a challenge than a blessing. Especially if (ooh!) we make sure to include a MINIMUM movement number for each squadron.


Now, to be fair, once a Leviathan starts to take massive damage from other Leviathans, it IS going to be very succeptible to Aeroplane Squadron attacks. But then, the Aeroplanes will have to have survived the battle that long.
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ApokalypseTest

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 10:06:13 AM »
uhm,

right, forgot the confimation rolll.

With the rules as played during Gencon, leviathans need to breach the armor before they get a crit roll. The planes don't. In case of the pelletier its a 1/6 followed by a 1/5 roll (misses are ignored on the confirmation roll, which makes sense since you actually hit the ship already) and thats for one open location - if we talk three or four, it gets mutch worse. I have seen svereal ships during Gencon live because penetration rolls failed - especially against battleships and type 3 s that have enough natural armor. With the planes as they are right now and the current version of the rules, planes kill a battleship easier than a cruiser.

The chance of not hitting the planes with three guns at all is still 4/6^3 assuming a 3 gun broadside. Thats still a good 25% chance of whiffing.

Jim1701

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 10:35:00 AM »
Sorry, this makes airplanes WAAAAY to powerful.  This is supposed to be a game of armored battleships slugging it out.  This would turn it into who fields the biggest cloud of gnats wins.  As Apokalypse already posted, with one destroyed location it wouldn't be so bad but Battleships are obviously designed to take a beating but these planes can just come in on a side with 3-4 destroyed location and have a pretty good chance of killing it.  Especially if the attack is to 3-4 squadrons. 

I also have to agree that these planes are too hard to kill as well.  Ships would have to add AA weapons to their loadout giving a lot more rolls.  It would take forever just to shoot down one squadron using the current ship designs.  I would hate to see all the original designs immediately obsolete. 

Jim1701

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 11:06:08 AM »
Now here are my suggestions:

1) Planes are killed after ONE hit, not three and they only get three miss slots.  Four miss slots and three hits is just too much for the current game system.

2) Planes do NO damage on their own.  However, whenever a squadron is within 2 hexes of an enemy ship, friendly ships that are firing on the same facing which the planes reside in may use the following bonus:
     a)  They may apply a bonus green die to their fire roll.  This reflects the recon data that planes are sending back to the recon fleet.  This bonus is NOT cumulative. 

OR

     b) They may "nudge" their slot roll dice roll result +1/-1.  This reflects the recon data that the planes are sending back to the recon fleet.  This bonus is NOT cumulative. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 11:08:13 AM by Jim1701 »

MadDogMaddux

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2011, 11:10:55 AM »
uhm,

right, forgot the confimation rolll.

With the rules as played during Gencon, leviathans need to breach the armor before they get a crit roll. The planes don't. In case of the pelletier its a 1/6 followed by a 1/5 roll (misses are ignored on the confirmation roll, which makes sense since you actually hit the ship already) and thats for one open location - if we talk three or four, it gets mutch worse. I have seen svereal ships during Gencon live because penetration rolls failed - especially against battleships and type 3 s that have enough natural armor. With the planes as they are right now and the current version of the rules, planes kill a battleship easier than a cruiser.

The chance of not hitting the planes with three guns at all is still 4/6^3 assuming a 3 gun broadside. Thats still a good 25% chance of whiffing.


Unless I'm misunderstanding the rules (I did play some Lev at GenCon), you can only get a Critical Roll if you hit a location that has already been breached. This remains unchanged for the planes. If they hit a location that has not been breached, their attack has no effect.

Maybe I didn't state that clearly enough. Sorry.

I re-checked p.21 of Lieutenant's Manual and I see what you're saying about beating the Breach Roll. What do you think would be a fair set of dice for a Squadron to use to attempt to beat a Breach Number? Maybe a single Red plus Target Movement dice, as it would give a possibility of Breach for even Type IVs, although not necessarily a high chance?

Sorry, this makes airplanes WAAAAY to powerful.  This is supposed to be a game of armored battleships slugging it out.  This would turn it into who fields the biggest cloud of gnats wins.  As Apokalypse already posted, with one destroyed location it wouldn't be so bad but Battleships are obviously designed to take a beating but these planes can just come in on a side with 3-4 destroyed location and have a pretty good chance of killing it.  Especially if the attack is to 3-4 squadrons. 

I also have to agree that these planes are too hard to kill as well.  Ships would have to add AA weapons to their loadout giving a lot more rolls.  It would take forever just to shoot down one squadron using the current ship designs.  I would hate to see all the original designs immediately obsolete. 

As far as damaging a Squadron goes, I think the fact that 3 hits kills it does a fair bit to balance the fact that they are difficult to hit, and early Lev's wouldn't mount AA until Aeroplanes were a common threat. That being said, I agree that we want a game that is DOMINATED by Levs, but is augmented in a fun way by Aeroplanes and Electrofliers. (Though I'm only dealing with Aeroplanes here)

I'm trying to come up with a mechanic that is balanced, allows Aeroplanes to be a decent enough threat, but also allows for fun technological growth down the road. Again, a comparison here to my other favorite Catalyst game. PBI are a credible threat to 'Mechs, but just barely, and only if played extremely well. That being said, they take a lot of direct weapon hits to kill unless you're the right weapons.

One way of handling it might be to increase the HIT spaces by one on the front arc, and maybe even by two on the rear.  Although in my mind that goes TOO far to weaken the Aeroplane. Perhaps, however, later Aeroplanes have less HIT spaces to reflect their increased maneuverability? They could come out around the same time that Levs start having more powerful AA, it might balance things well then.

Thoughts or ideas on how to further improve?


Thanks for participating in this, guys!
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MadDogMaddux

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 11:17:19 AM »
Now here are my suggestions:

1) Planes are killed after ONE hit, not three and they only get three miss slots.  Four miss slots and three hits is just too much for the current game system.

2) Planes do NO damage on their own.  However, whenever a squadron is within 2 hexes of an enemy ship, friendly ships that are firing on the same facing which the planes reside in may use the following bonus:
     a)  They may apply a bonus green die to their fire roll.  This reflects the recon data that planes are sending back to the recon fleet.  This bonus is NOT cumulative. 

OR

     b) They may "nudge" their slot roll dice roll result +1/-1.  This reflects the recon data that the planes are sending back to the recon fleet.  This bonus is NOT cumulative.

Personally, I think it makes more sense for Aeroplanes to do their own damage than to communicate back to the Levs. To me, at least, the idea of Aeroplanes having sufficient radio ability at this point in the timeline is less believable than that they have been able to mount Lewis Guns with Incendiary ammunition.

How about: Squadrons are killed after TWO hits, but have THREE dice, and a RED die plus Target Movement for the purpose of confirming criticals only. On the sides they have TWO hit locations, on the front THREE, and on the rear, FOUR.
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ravehnhuhrxt

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 11:25:03 AM »
I think, instead of 3 slot dice, you use 1DGreen per 4 planes in the squadron or maybe 1DBlue per 6 planes.  This way you work withing the mechanics of the breaching rolls and as the squadron looses planes the squad itself becomes less effective.

Also, instead of the squadron dying after X hits, how about if you kill 1 plane for each slot you roll above the breach/defense value of the squadron.  So if I fire 3 guns into your squad and breach with all 3, I just killed 3 planes.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 11:30:37 AM by ravehnhuhrxt »
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MadDogMaddux

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 11:50:45 AM »
I think, instead of 3 slot dice, you use 1DGreen per 4 planes in the squadron or maybe 1DBlue per 6 planes.  This way you work withing the mechanics of the breaching rolls and as the squadron looses planes the squad itself becomes less effective.

Also, instead of the squadron dying after X hits, how about if you kill 1 plane for each slot you roll above the breach/defense value of the squadron.  So if I fire 3 guns into your squad and breach with all 3, I just killed 3 planes.

I could definitely be comfortable with those rules - although I do think it should still be stipulated that Aeroplanes can't destroy locations on a Lev, but can only do damage to locations already destroyed by Naval gunfire.

My purpose in using multiple slot dice was to reflect the higher accuracy that an Aeroplane could attain on a strafing run, due to finesse and proximity, than that attainable by a Naval gun at range.
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Jim1701

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 12:53:39 PM »
I looked up Lewis guns  ;D and I don't see how they could do any significant damage to a leviathan even to a damaged location.  I just don't see any version of a airplane fighter doing any damage at all.  Not for a couple decades anyway.  I still believe the most viable vision for a small aircraft is something large enough to be able to fire torpedoes.  A kind of aerial PT Boat.  I haven't made a card but I think it would be something like:

Structural Integrity: 8
Ship Type:  PT Boat

Bow Slots (4): Miss | Crew | Torpedo | Direct Hit
Side Slots (4): Miss | Direct Hit | Tesla Coil Trim Tank | Direct Hit
Stern Slots (4): Miss | Engine 8 MP | Engine 8 MP| Direct Hit

Bow Armor (4): 8 | 9 | 8 | 9
Side Armor (4): 4 | 5 | 5 | 4
Stern Armor (4): 4 | 4 | 4 | 5

Bow Location Dice: Blue(Go) | N/A (Stop)
Side Location Dice: Green(Go) | N/A (Stop)
Stern Location Dice: Blue(Go) | N/A (Stop)

Starting MP: 14
Enter Hexes Before Turn: 4
Minimum number of hexes to move in order to stay aloft: 7

PT Boats have 4 slot locations rather than 6.
Any slot roll resulting in a direct hit results in an immediate Breaking the Keel roll.
PT Boats may fire 3 torpedoes before their munitions are expended.
Special stacking rule to allow up to 2 PT Boats to occupy the same hex.

Since I really don't know exactly how torpedoes work in the game yet a viable alternative might be to mount a 3 in. gun (or metric equivalent) in the bow.

Edit:  Made some changes to armor values, reduced speed, added need movement requirement, increased hexes to turn value and corrected rule regarding the Direct Hit slot. 
 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 06:50:49 PM by Jim1701 »

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 01:12:59 PM »
@MadDog:

I can see where you are coming from - but one thing that makes battletech infantry CONSIDERABLY less dangerous is the fact that they are actually SLOW. Even most 100t Mech can easily outmaneuver them. The thing with you planes is, that given a damaged leviathan, they will nearly always get a shot in - no hiding your bad side from a one square 14 mp, 1 turn thing.

Plus as Jim pointed out, nothing a plain carries could remotely do damage to a leviathan. The only way planes where successfully used against Zeppelins was with guns mounted to point up and using incendiaries. And the only reason the incendiaries worked was that Zeppelins were kept aloft by hydrogen tanks. Most airplanes cannot even reach enough altitude to be a danger for a leviathan (assuming that leviathans use comparable ceiling heights as zeppelins) since they can only see them from below.

But, as has been pointed out before - physics are less important than Gameplay. Here my gripe is, that everyone still tries to deal with the superiority of small ships (destroyers) over the larger ones (Miss slots in the Zones counting as destroyed for the Keel roll (and I think they actually gave plus 2 on the roll during gencon) goes a long way towards this, but still doesnt make cruisers that more attractive). Introducing even smaller gnats does not necessarily make the game more fun. Small, fast units with a reasonable chance to damage larger, more costly slow ones tend to be the best choices in war games. Ever tried to lose a 100t Mech against 20 5t Skimmers with 20+ Move and a medium Laser each?

I can see why planes would be fun if you have one or two squadrons - but the competetive player would settle for swarms with the current mechanics.

Unfortunately, everything that renders them unable to do damage on their own renders the whole point of planes moot. Sorry to be the spoilsport, I just don't see an elegant solution to this yet.

MadDogMaddux

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 02:47:52 PM »
I looked up Lewis guns  ;D and I don't see how they could do any significant damage to a leviathan even to a damaged location.  I just don't see any version of a airplane fighter doing any damage at all.  Not for a couple decades anyway.  I still believe the most viable vision for a small aircraft is something large enough to be able to fire torpedoes.  A kind of aerial PT Boat.  I haven't made a card but I think it would be something like:

Structural Integrity: 8
Ship Type:  PT Boat

Bow Slots (4): Miss | Crew | Torpedo | Direct Hit
Side Slots (4): Miss | Direct Hit | Tesla Coil Trim Tank | Direct Hit
Stern Slots (4): Miss | Engine 8MP | Engine 8 MP| Direct Hit

Bow Armor (4): 8 | 9 | 8 | 9
Side Armor (4): 7 | 9 | 8 | 7
Stern Armor (4): 8 | 8 | 8 | 9

Bow Breach Dice: Blue(Go) | Green x 2(Stop)
Side Breach Dice: Green(Go) | Blue (Stop)
Stern Breach Dice: Blue(Go) | Green x 2(Stop)

Starting MP: 16
Enter Hexes Before Turn: 1

PT Boats have 4 slot locations rather than 6.
Any slot roll resulting in a direct hit results in an immediate breach roll.
PT Boats may fire 3 torpedoes before their munitions are expended.
Special stacking rule to allow up to 2 PT Boats to occupy the same hex.

Since I really don't know exactly how torpedoes work in the game yet a viable alternative might be to mount a 3 in. gun (or metric equivalent) in the bow.

Jim,

I definitely dig the idea of PT boats, etc. eventually. I think it was WorkTroll who said that currently there are not small/light enough power plants to generate the necessary electricity to energize the Electroid sufficiently to lift them at that size. (Wow, that was a crazy run-on sentance there). I believe he said that the fact that torpedoes only run a few seconds is the justification by which they are functional at this time in the game.

As far as the Lewis gun, I'm definitely with you on its limited damage ability. It's a pretty wimpy gun standing up to a Lev, which I think the only way it stands a chance is if it is firing into an area where there is already a breech in the armor. How does it actually damage the Lev that way? I can't remember source and page right now, but Levs carry a huge store of Oil and Ammunition. Basically you're hoping your wimpy Lewis gun can follow up the devastation already created within the Lev and touch off a catastrophic explosion or fire. There's really no way for Aeroplanes to break a ship's keel - but with the right chain of events, an aeroplane squadron could concievably destroy it or render it combat ineffective.

The only other way to make it happen, insofar as I see it, is to push technological advancement even further - and I think we'd all rather not do that.

Still, when I envision a fun game of Lev in  my head, or when I try to picture a cinematic depiction thereof, the game seems richer to me with the presence of Aeroplanes. It's simply a question of how do they fit within the structure of the game that allows this to continue to be a game about big ships in the sky, and just adds color and flavor.
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Jim1701

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 03:14:29 PM »
When I say PT Boats you keep thinking that I'm talking about a fully powered electroid vehicle.  That is not the case.  Here's the deal.  There is no way airplanes in 1910 can do anything to hurt the mass of metal that is a Leviathan.  And there is no way to build a leviathan smaller than a destroyer.  But if combine the technologies you get something that neither alone can accomplish.  My PT boat would require wings and thrust to stay aloft.  It  would also require powered electroid as well.  Neither alone enough to keep the vehicle in the air but together allows for a fast, lightly armored flying vehicle that would be about the size of a B-24(ish.)

Now as I was saying in another thread I would think this development would take a little longer than the original development of the airplane because more time would have to be devoted to improving the power to weight ratios of the IC engines used for aircraft. 

If you want standard aircraft to be able to do much damage to a leviathan you would have to be able to arm them with some sort of rockets.  MG's of any stripe just aren't going to cut it. 

MadDogMaddux

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Re: An idea for the mechanics of Aeroplanes
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 03:48:10 PM »
@MadDog:

I can see where you are coming from - but one thing that makes battletech infantry CONSIDERABLY less dangerous is the fact that they are actually SLOW. Even most 100t Mech can easily outmaneuver them. The thing with you planes is, that given a damaged leviathan, they will nearly always get a shot in - no hiding your bad side from a one square 14 mp, 1 turn thing.

Plus as Jim pointed out, nothing a plain carries could remotely do damage to a leviathan. The only way planes where successfully used against Zeppelins was with guns mounted to point up and using incendiaries. And the only reason the incendiaries worked was that Zeppelins were kept aloft by hydrogen tanks. Most airplanes cannot even reach enough altitude to be a danger for a leviathan (assuming that leviathans use comparable ceiling heights as zeppelins) since they can only see them from below.

But, as has been pointed out before - physics are less important than Gameplay. Here my gripe is, that everyone still tries to deal with the superiority of small ships (destroyers) over the larger ones (Miss slots in the Zones counting as destroyed for the Keel roll (and I think they actually gave plus 2 on the roll during gencon) goes a long way towards this, but still doesnt make cruisers that more attractive). Introducing even smaller gnats does not necessarily make the game more fun. Small, fast units with a reasonable chance to damage larger, more costly slow ones tend to be the best choices in war games. Ever tried to lose a 100t Mech against 20 5t Skimmers with 20+ Move and a medium Laser each?

I can see why planes would be fun if you have one or two squadrons - but the competetive player would settle for swarms with the current mechanics.

Unfortunately, everything that renders them unable to do damage on their own renders the whole point of planes moot. Sorry to be the spoilsport, I just don't see an elegant solution to this yet.

Fair enough. My main purpose for starting this thread is to take advantage of the Creative Commons concept and see if we can't work together to build something that would really add to the game. Whether or not my initial offering flies (pardon the pun) is not so much the point as it is to get us chewing together on a possible way to work this into the game.

Re: 20+ 5ton Hovercraft, I'm with you that it's a lame game, and usually the hovers will win it by sheer volume of firepower. That being said, I don't begrudge the existence of the Savannah Master in Battletech, it's a fun tank.

The reality is that there are people who will take any game system, figure out where the loopholes are, and abuse the game through them. I definitely would like to see Aeroplanes included in Leviathans, and I think that they can be developed in a way that can add to the game, but I don't think that we can write anything in such a way that someone can't figure out how to abuse it. As you've pointed out, there are some things that could be considered exploits within the core rules as already being published.

So personally, I return to the crunchy and find myself asking the question "How can we make this work?" Hopefully this dialog can prove productive, and perhaps even eventually provide the game with some ideas that the writers will use.

With regards to movement, Infantry, and Aeroplanes, I definitely see your point that the inability of Infantry to keep up with Battlemechs softens their impact on the game. Perhaps we can do something about Aeroplanes to a similar effect, by going in the opposite direction.

If your early Aeroplane is capable of 70MPH cruising, which translates to roughly 14 hexes of MP, it may be worth considering that a) said Aeroplane must ENTER seven hexes per turn to avoid stalling, and b) that at such speeds it cannot probably turn as quickly as I have expressed above. Perhaps we change it to 2 or even 3 hexes forward before turning one hex-side?

The effect of these changes would be to make it much harder for Aeroplane Squadrons to be exactly where they  need to be to fire upon their chosen target, and they would definitely not be able to just camp out over a weakened Lev.

Here's an idea, taking into account most of the comments above might look like the following:


Move: 14, must enter 7 hexes, Move 2 before Turning
Turn Order: Aeroplane Squadrons move after Leviathans, fire after Leviathans, and take damage BEFORE firing
Damage: 3 Hit slots on the front, 2 on each side, 4 on the rear. Each hit kills 3 planes. Each 3 planes do a DGreen damage plust target modifier. Squadron size of 9 Planes, makes one attack against a Leviathan as a unit.

Alternately:
Move: 14, must enter 7 hexes, Move 2 before Turning
Turn Order: Aeroplane Squadrons move after Leviathans, fire after Leviathans, and take damage BEFORE firing
Damage: 3 Hit slots on front, 2 on each side, 4 on the rear. Each hit kills 3 planes, each 3 planes roll a Location Dice and can only damage previously destroyed sections, confirming criticals with a DYellow plus target modifier to estabilsh Breech Number. Squadron size of 9 Aeroplanes.

CDT #132