Leviathans and the future: the 1930s

[cray]

Leviathans putter along now with low-pressure steam engines, some reciprocating, some turbines: giant, well, leviathans of the air. However, the power-to-weight ratios of engines is going to climb dramatically in the next few decades. High pressure steam, diesel engines, gas turbines...

What happens to the Leviathans setting when ships can reach 200 or 300mph?

[Pik]

I just can't imagine 15.000 ton-skyships maneuvering swiftly in a ferocious dogfight. Naval-style heavy guns could hardly ever hit another leviathan and rapid fire weapons of that period would bounce off the target's armor. So, IMO without development of accurate rapid-firing heavy weaponry or guided bombs/aeral torpedoes leviathans would degenerate into air-to-ground gun platforms.

[Worktroll]

Do triple- and quadruple-expansion steam engines count as low pressure? And some people, including Albert Coanda, are beginning to look at multiple ducted fans and have dark thoughts ...

And there are turbine vessels out there - mainly sky destroyers. Fuelling oil is the main drawback - having spent 30 years assembling stockpiles of coal around the world, the Great Air Powers are loath to repeat the exercise with a new fuel.

I tell you one thing - Levs moving at 200mph need better streamlining, for one thing. I personally like the idea of 1930s Levs looking like the Chrysler building on its side - art deco for the win!

W.

[cray]

Do triple- and quadruple-expansion steam engines count as low pressure? And some people, including Albert Coanda, are beginning to look at multiple ducted fans and have dark thoughts ...

The LZ129 Hindenburg used 4800hp to sprint at 85mph, and it's on the same scale as Leviathans. How many horsepower did the 1906AD HMS Dreadnought have?

At those speeds (under 200mph), you don't need great streamlining, but modest horsepower gives you speeds that turns some features of Leviathans on ear.

[glitterboy2098]

frankly, i suspect the biggest advantage higher HP engines will give isn't in terms of airspeed, but in terms of electrical power. don't forget that we're also looking at a revolution in electrical production in the same time peroid. accellerated compared to "home earth" perhaps, given the greater use of electricity the Leviathans earth has.

with more electrical power from smaller generators, not only would you be looking at more efficent lift systems on the big ships (allowing more armor and guns), but also longer ranged aerial torpedoes, and lighter airships. instead of a destroyer being the smallest viable hull, you might see development of smaller ships, like frigates, possibly even "torpedo boats".

if you apply Internal Combustion engine tech to the more compact generators, you could certainly do the latter, albiet as a short range attack ship.

[Worktroll]

Or, to go in another direction - imagine an art deco Atragon

[cray]

if you apply Internal Combustion engine tech to the more compact generators, you could certainly do the latter, albiet as a short range attack ship.

Diesel engines have significantly longer range for a given mass of fuel at a given horsepower than steam engines, especially 1900s steam engines. Steam engines simply have lower thermal efficiency than combustion engines, a deficiency which can become particularly pronounced when compared to large marine diesel engines. Or to put it another way: you can get a lot more horsepower for the same mass of fuel with a combustion engine, and even more horsepower for the same mass of engine and fuel.

Gas turbines tend to be fuel-thirsty, but they also deliver very high amounts of horsepower.

[Worktroll]

I've just been doing some reading which covered the development of the early commercial jets - DH Comet, Boeing 707, DC-9 - and the later wide-bodies (all of which owe their existance to the contract for the C-5 Galaxy, and development of bypass turbofans) ... lots of ideas for when we hit the jet age

[TheBigD]

What about Leviathans in SPaaaaaace?

[cray]

What about Leviathans in SPaaaaaace?

The "anti-gravity" feature of the setting does have interesting potential for space travel. It won't get you to orbital velocities, but it might get you to orbital altitudes.

I'm trying to think how to exploit that for early spaceflight. It would still be a bugger to get to orbital velocities; you're only carving off about 900-1200m/s of 9000m/s by starting from a vacuum and 100-200 miles altitude.

Is there some technology to Leviathans' alternate technology that delivers propulsion?

[Paul]

What about Leviathans in SPaaaaaace?

The "anti-gravity" feature of the setting does have interesting potential for space travel. It won't get you to orbital velocities, but it might get you to orbital altitudes.

I'm trying to think how to exploit that for early spaceflight. It would still be a bugger to get to orbital velocities; you're only carving off about 900-1200m/s of 9000m/s by starting from a vacuum and 100-200 miles altitude.

Possibly as a mild alternative to the skyhook, with a dedicated lev vehicle bussing up the actual orbital/interplanetary vehicle, such that it doesn't need propulsion mass to take care of that initial altitude/speed.

Is there some technology to Leviathans' alternate technology that delivers propulsion?

The mechanisms are still a bit vague around the edges (more so since John still owes me a response to an email from about a year ago... )
The effect appears to be relative to the nearby source of the gravity, so that's not really propulsion. Of course, for me to suggest that there's only one application to electroid is a bit premature, perhaps the setting allows for alternate techs down the line.
But certainly initially, all eyes will be on the start of the 20th century.

Paul

[cray]

Possibly as a mild alternative to the skyhook, with a dedicated lev vehicle bussing up the actual orbital/interplanetary vehicle, such that it doesn't need propulsion mass to take care of that initial altitude/speed.

How high can electroid take a vehicle? I know there's a voltage limit with 1900s technology, but if you can get to several thousand miles then orbital velocity requirements get much lower and more achievable.

And even without orbital velocity, I'm sure great use can be found for orbital altitude in the early 20th Century: recon, weather monitoring, communications, etc.

[Paul]

How high can electroid take a vehicle? I know there's a voltage limit with 1900s technology, but if you can get to several thousand miles then orbital velocity requirements get much lower and more achievable.

So far, the exact mechanisms haven't been revealed. There doesn't seem to be a ceiling per se, although current naval vessels do have a maximum "altitude" that's considered a strategic secret. Might be because the air gets too thin, not because they can't get any higher, it's not specified.

If I were to speculate, there would be a ceiling, and there's not enough info available to determine if the power needed to cause electroid lift is linear to altitude, or some sort of exponential function.

And even without orbital velocity, I'm sure great use can be found for orbital altitude in the early 20th Century: recon, weather monitoring, communications, etc.

Kinetic bombardment.



But yes, for sure.

Paul

[Worktroll]

FOr the record - electroid appears to act in terms of vertical lift only. Propulsion comes from initially airscrews (aka propellors in the mundane timeline), then ducted fans, then multiple ducted fans.

(Thinking outside the box, imagine a Leviathan with great, big wings. Use electroid to gain lift, then cut power, and hope your flying battleship's gliding characteristics are as good as a wide-bodied jet's.)

In 1910, anyway, electroid is well understood in a pragmatic sense, but not in a theoretical sense. The leading electroid theoreticians of the age - Bequerel, the Curies,Thompson and his irascible student the New Zealander Rutherford, Germany's Placnk - are still coming to grips with the stuff.

Maximum elevation will depend on a complex interplay of electroid, power generation and materials. More power & higher voltages usually means more engines, which means less usable lift, etc etc.  Of course, these things will improve over time. And it's worth noting that, to 21st Century eyes,s it's apparent that the Leviathans of our 1910 do not appear to be pressurised.

W.

[Vampire_Seraphin]

FOr the record - electroid appears to act in terms of vertical lift only. Propulsion comes from initially airscrews (aka propellors in the mundane timeline), then ducted fans, then multiple ducted fans.

(Thinking outside the box, imagine a Leviathan with great, big wings. Use electroid to gain lift, then cut power, and hope your flying battleship's gliding characteristics are as good as a wide-bodied jet's.)

In 1910, anyway, electroid is well understood in a pragmatic sense, but not in a theoretical sense. The leading electroid theoreticians of the age - Bequerel, the Curies,Thompson and his irascible student the New Zealander Rutherford, Germany's Placnk - are still coming to grips with the stuff.

Maximum elevation will depend on a complex interplay of electroid, power generation and materials. More power & higher voltages usually means more engines, which means less usable lift, etc etc.  Of course, these things will improve over time. And it's worth noting that, to 21st Century eyes,s it's apparent that the Leviathans of our 1910 do not appear to be pressurised.

W.

They are also probably cold