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Author Topic: Determining Points Value Beta Test  (Read 22892 times)

First Sea Lord Randall Bills

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Determining Points Value Beta Test
« on: September 10, 2012, 12:33:40 PM »
If you've not already seen it, check out the Leviathans Point System Open Beta Test portion of the downloads page! 

Let the testing and comments begin...and thanks, as usual, right from the start for your involvement!


Randall

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 01:51:29 PM »
Now I don't have the box set, or even someone to playtest the rules against, but I would like to encourage folks to test out the Fleet Size Multiplier rules. BattleTech has a similar rule which has caused some headaches and hasn't worked as well as some would have expected. I'm hoping the FSM works better in Levs, but I just wanted to point out an area to encourage folks not to overlook in their own testing.

Weirdo

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 01:58:42 PM »
My greatest joy with this product is that the FSM is optional, so I can ignore it completely without feeling like one of those houserulers. Others may be fine with it, but for the longest time, it left me feeling dirty when playing Battletech, much like using customized designs. With Levs, I can encourage people to use smaller units without sullying myself!
...because that battleship's...well...FLYING.

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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »
My greatest joy with this product is that the FSM is optional, so I can ignore it completely without feeling like one of those houserulers. Others may be fine with it, but for the longest time, it left me feeling dirty when playing Battletech, much like using customized designs. With Levs, I can encourage people to use smaller units without sullying myself!

The FSM is optional in BattleTech too - it's not in Total Warfare, after all :D

As for these points, I've compliled the pre-generated points values for each ship into a table and I'll see if the group want to use them for tomorrow's game.

One thing I did notice:  comparing the ships used in the Lieutenant's manual, the French have a distinct advantage - 203 points (80 for Pelletier and 123 for Pontbriand) compared to 177 points for the British (75 points for Raven and 102 points for Heretfordshire).  I realise some of that is possily down to the abilities that are in the Commander's manual rules (turrets and bracket fire), but it's a little it worrying in terms of making balanced starter games using the 'official' set-up

Tonbo Karasu

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 04:11:24 AM »
A number of initial thoughts and comments.

1)  Your Master Leviathan Gun Batteries Table has a mistake in it.  The French 274mm battery is listed as having a dBlack for short range, but on the Jean Bart ship card it is showing as DRed.  Of course, that makes me wonder what the 240mm battery should be.  Making the change reduces the cost of Jean Bart by 1 and Paris by 2, but I'm more worried about the implications of the difference between what was published and what Randall has.

2)  Given that you have said there are going to be variant torpedoes, can I suggest a formula rather than a flat rate?  How about calculate it like a normal gun battery, then divide the total by 3, which would give Standard Aerial Torpedoes a value of 78.

3)  What is the Fog of War point value?

4)  Gun Batteries should only have the Bracket Fire modifier if they can actually carry out bracket firing under the rules, otherwise they are being costed for an ability they can't actually use: the biggest culprit being the County class broadsides.

5)  There seems to be a mistake in Montpellier: the 138mm are listed as being Turreted in the sheet.  Turning it to just B makes it 81 / 74

A while back the SMS Wiesbaden got previewed,so I plugged its details into the calculation sheets.  Ignoring the bracketing crew it comes out at 121 (although, I may have made a transcription error somewhere: the rear 10cm gun isn't in a turret?  Well, it's worth +1 on the final value if it is turreted).  If we assume that the bracketing crew basically adds another point to the calculation, that gives another 9 points, putting it at 130-131 in the high end of Light Cruisers.

I also tried putting LoO's Opale into it: 89
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 07:31:23 AM by Tonbo Karasu »
Karasu



Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 09:45:38 AM »
So I went back and redid The Lieutenant's Manual ships, but left out turrets and bracketing fire.  And they're much more balanced that way - 66 points for Raven, 83 for Herefordshire and 70 for Pelletier and 84 for Pontbriand.  So the starter scenario appear to remain fair for both sides.

Ramcat

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 11:49:30 AM »
So I went back and redid The Lieutenant's Manual ships, but left out turrets and bracketing fire.  And they're much more balanced that way - 66 points for Raven, 83 for Herefordshire and 70 for Pelletier and 84 for Pontbriand.  So the starter scenario appear to remain fair for both sides.

Very interesting 154 French to 149 British. When I play the Lieutenant's Manual the French always win. I taught it last night to my brother and gave him the French so he would win and he did. I tried my best, even flanked the French light Cruiser twice with my destroyer but hit nothing. Ultimately the French win that because, more speed, more guns. Anyone else feel this way?

Scotty

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 12:04:38 PM »
I also tried putting LoO's Opale into it: 89

Heh, thanks.  I was actually going to do that later today, but you beat me to the punch.  I'll just do a quick double-check instead, then.  :)

EDIT:  Fixed anomaly.

Structural Integrity:    162 (18*9)
Starting MP:             100 (10*10)
Enter Hexes Before Turn: -10 (-10*1)
Breach Numbers:          202 (35+59+59+49)
Moved Location Dice:     -24 (5+7+7+5)
Miss Slots:              30 (5*6)
Torpedoes:               150 (2*75)
Crew:                    30 (2*15)
Guns:                    249 (27+27+27+64+64+40)


Total:                   889

Divided by ten, rounds up to 89.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 01:06:06 PM by Leaderoforcs »


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Tonbo Karasu

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2012, 01:04:55 PM »
You need to subtract the location dice total, instead of adding it.
Karasu



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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 01:06:41 PM »
That was it.  Not sure how I missed that, but fixed.


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Ramcat

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 01:40:57 PM »
What is the premise of the point system?

If you take 150 points of any country's ships vs 150 points of another country and equally skilled commanders, the battles should go 50/50 over the long haul?

Say in 10 games you should get 5 to 5 but 6 to 4 would be acceptable as variance. A 7 to 3 result would mean the ships are not pointed correctly?

If this is the premise of the point system, Leviathans has a minor complication. Points for which rules are you using? Should there be points for Lieutenant's Manual, Commanders Manual, and Captains Manual? Torpedoes affected by elevation are different point value than those not affected by elevation (I would think).

So what rule set should we be "pointing" these ships with?

Scotty

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 01:48:52 PM »
Commander's, of course.  It's also worth noting that these point values don't exist to run the battle for you.  They're rough guidlines to the effectiveness of a given ship in "standard" (in this case, as with BattleTech, in most cases, that means tournament legal, I would suspect) situation.

That said, 150 points versus 150 points would leave you with a grand total of two Destroyers and not much else.  Heck, there are a few destroyers that you couldn't even buy two of for 150 points.


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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 03:52:57 PM »
That said, 150 points versus 150 points would leave you with a grand total of two Destroyers and not much else.  Heck, there are a few destroyers that you couldn't even buy two of for 150 points.

Yes, that was just a number. 4000 vs 4000, 500 vs 500, 768 vs 768, whatever fleet size choosen the battles fought from it should run 50/50 over the course of X number of battles with up to 60/40 varience acceptable?

Jim1701

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 04:06:30 PM »
The best you can hope to state is that the forces selected are roughly equivalent.  Whether you could win half the time depends on a lot of variables.  Some under your control and some not. 

Weirdo

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Re: Determining Points Value Beta Test
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 04:09:46 PM »
For me, acceptable is if two players bring roughly equal fleets(+- 10% is a good margin of error for me), and they both feel as if they had fun, and the game wasn't inherently massively slanted in one direction or another by the ship choice.
...because that battleship's...well...FLYING.

"...a surge of several hundred thousand tons of war-forged steel on a collision course with awesome!" - Randall Bills